Glass Half Full or Half Empty - Running Backs
Since spring practice has started I thought it might be interesting to kick start a bit of conversation about the team. I decided to try something new and create a google survey to collect people’s opinions and then share the results. The first survey asks 5 questions and is focused on our running backs.
1. Is your general feeling about our running backs glass half full or half empty
2. Who makes you most confident our running baks have a high floor.? Choices are: each of the 4 scholarship running backs, Mike Hart and I don’t think they have a high floor
3 Who makes you most confident our running backs have a high ceiling? Same choices as 2.
4. Do you think that our running backs will be a strength of the team, a weakness of the team or neither a strength nor a weakness?
5. Should I do this for other position groups? Wide receivers would likely be next.
As a reminder, our 4 scholarship running backs are:
1. Hassan Haskins: I https://mgoblue.com/sports/football/roster/hassan-haskins/21992
Haskins rushed for 622 yards and 4 touchdowns as a sophomore. He rushed for 375yards and 6 touchdowns as a junior. He has four one hundred yard games including a career high of 149 against Notre Dame in 2019 and closed last season with back to back 100 yard games against Rutgers and Penn State. He was a three star prospect on all three recruiting sites.
2. Blake Corum: https://mgoblue.com/sports/football/roster/blake-corum/21973
Corum rushed for 77 yards and 2 touchdowns in his freshman year. He also had 73 yards receiving. Corum was a 4 star in all three services,
3. Donovan Edwards: https://mgoblue.com/sports/football/roster/donovan-edwards/21948
Edwards was rated a 4 star by all 3 services. He was a thousand yard rusher in both his junior and senior seasons.
4. Tavierre Dunlap: https://mgoblue.com/sports/football/roster/tavierre-dunlap/21933
247 rated Dunlap as a 4 star while Rivals and ESPN ranked him as a 3 star.
And here is the survey. I have never done one of these before, so I apologize in advance if it is a disaster.
Offensive line.
What did the line do to offend you, now?!? ?
(I’ll see myself out)
This doesn't bug you? Personally, I'm incensed.
I hope that it is because I am not a morning person that it took me so long to get this. I had to re-read the prior posts twice before I busted out laughing.
I would agree wholeheartedly that there are a number of other factors that are going to impact, the running backs. In retrospect, I wish I’d added another question to get at that. Clearly the offensive line is one, play-calling, running back rotation and how well the qb can execute RPOs are probably other big ones.
This is what I came to comment on-"other". I believe Cade will be the QB...I believe he will both be willing and able to execute an RPO offense which will catalyze the success of both the OL and RBs. This is high on my "priority list" for next year's offense.
Yeah. I'm really worried about the O line. I'm happy in that we have decent talent there and decent experience now; but I'm really worried about Moore. I don't say he'll be bad, we just don't know. And that's worrisome because of how key it is to everything.
O line is a special position that requires a unique blend of chemistry, ferocity, mass, and athletic talent to be really really good, IMHO. I think we were at our best with the trap running Harbaugh and Warinner introduced to Gattis' scheme. I don't know where we will go now.
I like Gattis. He shows flashes at times. But when given the keys he sometimes seems too enamored with complexity and too willing to short on the run by drawing up just lame run plays. When Harbaugh and Gattis modified it it really seemed to flesh out the rest of the offense by making us a multiple threat offense.
So... half full? I like Haskins alot. Corum has great speed. Edwards has great talent, but we'll see. But so much depends on the scheme, the line, and the calls.
When I was at Michigan Wheatley came in as a freshman and did great things because we had a great line, a pass game that was efficient if not super flashy, and great blocking schemes. Those things allowed him to highlight his speed and talent.
Half-full. My instinct is upset about losing the "complete" back in Charbonnet, but times are changing and Haskins has shown to have great vision, burst, and physical running. The quicker backs are tough and have tons of talent between them. Dunlap I don't know anything about but he seems a bit stockier, which is nice to have.
Depth of the running back room would have been another good choice to give on what impacts floor and ceiling.
Half-full. High Floor feeling is Haskins being a Higdon-type productive back with some flashes from Corum and Edwards. High Ceiling feeling is Corum and Haskins (and possibly Edwards potential) chasing off Charbonnet because he seemed like a real talent and couldn’t unseat these guys. Group will be a strength with Hart coaching them, assuming the o-line and run game calls aren’t a mess.
Great concise summary. Should have just had you right this and saved myself the effort.
I'd prefer to have him left it.
Maybe I just don't understand football well enough, but I just don't think it's been the fault of the running backs themselves with our rushing production over the last several years. We've had a lot of talented backs get washed out by coaching changes, dysfunctional o-lines, and mishandlings of the depth chart. Like, other than Haskins not going right on the 4th against OSU in 2019, what is a bad RB play we can remember? Of course, I'm excited about Mike Hart being here and having Corum and Edwards, but if we can't consistently call RPOs when appropriate and actually run them correctly, then they'll get washed out just the same.
I hope your name is for the baking soda and not the cannibal.
Armand Hammer (former board member of the company that makes Arm & Hammer products) is actually Armie Hammer's great grandfather. Curiously enough the Arm & Hammer brand name was in use way before Armand Hammer was associated with it.
I bet the interview went swimmingly.
“What is your name?”
“Armand Hammer.”
“You’re hired.”
I agree with this take. Lot's of talent, but play calling and O-Line blocking are a bigger factor than the RB talent.
I do think RB pass protection will be much improved with Hart as the coach. For a smaller back he excelled in pass pro.
"Like, other than Haskins not going right on the 4th against OSU in 2019, what is a bad RB play we can remember?"
Higdon getting called for holding late against NW?
Nonetheless, I think play calling and favoritism hurt the RB room more than anything else. Everyone of the RB's improved during the season (each year), including Christian Turner, under Jaybaugh. Play calls we know about, those have been horrendous at times, and seriously baffling at other times. The rotation we saw the last couple of years, I think, came about as a way to show there was no favoritism from the coaches. And it didn't work out.
I don't think Mike Hart will change the trajectory of actually coaching the RBs - they'll run the same drills, learn the same protections, run the same plays, that Jaybaugh taught. And they'll be the same from that perspective. I know some don't like him, but Jay has proven to be a good coach. The difference, as I see it, will be in play calling and continuity of attack.
If this team is to improve, that improvement will have to come from the offense. It's not the players, and it's not the RB position coach. It will have to come from the head coach and OC.
Agreed.
I"m hoping Hart has some say in the running plays. Same with Harbaugh. Have Gattis submit his plays like a new teacher submitting lesson plans. 'So, Josh, that play where you run straight into the center of the line with no additional blocking or traps or anything.....maybe not so much....'
RB is easily the strongest position group on the team. Half full.
Depending upon both the reaction to the survey style post and my motivation level, I may get do one that gets at the offense as a whole if I get through (in probably this order): running backs, wide receivers, qbs, offensive line and tight ends.
Agreed. We lost Charbonnet, who I thought was a very good back, and I'm not even concerned. That's how good the running back room is. I don't even blame him, given he might have been 3rd or 4th best on the team.
How the backs get utilized is another question entirely. I've been very open in believing Gattis was the problem on offense. I cannot wait for the fall to be proven how little I know about football.
Thank you for putting this together blue in dc! Am interested to see the results.
I am amazed to see that between approximately 11:00 PM and 7:20 AM, there are already over 60 responses. Thanks for participating. I expect to post a summary tonight,
That's because no matter how many people jump on the basketball bandwagon when they are winning and want to claim (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) that we are a basketball school, we are not.
Outside of Russell, basketball may as well of started here in 1989. Football started ~ 1889.
I think Howard's great and I hope they win the Tourny, but I'd take a win over OSU in football a million times over that.
Entirely full, our RB room is fantastic
How about LB's? I have no idea what we have at that position group. I know the names, at least from the traditional group, but with the new sets I'm curious whom else might take snaps at LB this season. Good stuff. ?
We’ll see if I get through the offense before I worry about the defense. I might have to do some crowdsourcing if I get that far, because you have already made me realize it could be much harder to categorize players.
I'll just say this: I'm a big fan of Haskins. His top-end speed is mediocre and I wouldn't say all his decisions are perfect, but he runs through garbage beautifully and that's really important when your head coach insists on calling plays that often require ... running through garbage.
It's also nice that he was an under-the-radar recruit. He's a poke in the eye to Maizen and all the Maizen-enablers on this board.
He almost reminds me of Deveon Smith. Maybe not a home run threat but you can make an effective running game with that.
Not as limited as Hoard, but I love this quote:
Hoard was known as a "goal-line" running back who excelled at breaking through an opposing defense's goal-line defenses. Regarding his skills, Hoard reportedly once said to his coach, "Coach, if you need one yard, I'll get you three yards. If you need five yards, I'll get you three yards."
Leroy was great. Love that quote.
Half-empty. Too many question marks at all the positional offensive groups, Harbaugh feels the need to play 4-5 running backs against teams worth a shit and we refuse to give our backs easy yards by using tempo and gassing the other team.
I think the question obscures a more fundamental issue: even if I like the talent in that room, do I have faith in this coaching staff to use it to full advantage? My answer to that is “no.” I was in the “time to move on from Harbaugh” crowd last year. But he’s been resigned so we have to resign ourselves to our fate. So I’ll hope for something good, but I’m not optimistic. Doesn’t matter how good the tools are if you have a lousy carpenter on your hands.
I'm disappointed Charbonnet left, but Haskins was clearly our most productive back last year. I would said the other way around after 2019, but Haskins performed better last year and had the patience and burst to find holes and get through them more consistently than Charbonnet did. He is a quality back and should be the starter. He runs with speed, power, and has patience to find lanes. Corum showed some promise, but probably got more carries than he deserved IMO last year based on production and much of those should have gone to Charbonnet. Despite that you'd assume he's penciled into the #2 slot unless Edwards proves he deserves to be ahead of him. All three likely will get snaps, although I personally hope we have a better approach this year. If Haskins is our #1 back he should be in there the vast majority of the snaps unless he's getting a breather or the game is no longer in question. Corum should start off getting snaps giving Haskins a breather and Edwards should be the garbage time guy. If Edwards proves himself he can either split snaps with Corum or overtake him. But, as a proven senior, Haskins is #1.
The backs will be as good as the o-line are QB are. You need balance to run the ball. We can't expect to run first on everyone and only throw on 3rd and long. We need to keep defenses off balance with a good mix of run and pass and hopefully some effective RPO as well. But, if the o-line and QB are productive this RBs have all the talent to be as well. Unless there are significant injuries, RB should be a strong point and there shouldn't be anything to worry about. It's plug and play.
What has to stop is the senseless usage of the running backs. If Haskins is the guy, let him be the guy. He carried only 61 times in six games last year. Corum got more carries than Charbonnet, even though he averaged only 2.8 yards per to Charbonnet’s 6.5, and that was after Charbonnet gained 726 yards (4.9 per carry) and scored 11 touchdowns as a freshman. No wonder he left.
What has to stop is the senseless usage of the running backs.
I also found this frustrating. I have no idea if that decision was the younger or elder Harbaugh's to make, but regardless hopefully Hart can help improve this system. I am confident JH will listen to Hart and Hart will speak up about how to handle his position group.
"I have no idea if that decision was the younger or elder Harbaugh's to make..."
I cannot believe that Jay had anything to do with the rotation - unless he was calling the plays. It's my contention that each RB was given a set of plays to perfect, so when a play was called it was the RB that had that play who went into the game. Seems like that type of thing would come from the OC (and, by necessity, signed off by the HC), not the RB coach (who is one of the junior-ist coaching positions in the hierarchy).
I know people like to pick on Jay and blame everything on him, though...
It's my contention that each RB was given a set of plays to perfect, so when a play was called it was the RB that had that play who went into the game.
That's an interesting take. I hadn't considered that. I've never heard of that before though. What makes you think that? Why wouldn't Haskins for example, who'd already been in Gattis' system for a year prior to '20, be able to handle all the play calls? It's not like it was his first year or he had glaring issues like can't pass block or can't catch the ball out of the backfield, etc. He seemed clearly the #1 guy all the time. Why wouldn't they want him to be a part of all plays?
I dunno... I have no clue if that's what happened, or not. What I saw, though, was the same RBs running the same plays. Sort of like when McDoom came into the game - everyone on both sidelines, in the booth, in the stands, and on TV sets throughout the country, knew that an end-around was coming. Sort of like when Peppers came in for a wildcat snap - everyone on both sidelines, in the booth, in the stands, and on TV sets throughout the country, knew that he was going to keep it.
This coaching staff, since Jedd Fisch left, has been stuck in a rut doing the same things over and over and over. I don't know if they really divided up groups and said 'group A runs these plays, group B runs these other plays, and group C gets this set; so we're going to perfect our plays and be unstoppable...'
I hope they didn't. But dear gawd the results sure makes it look like they did...
What I saw, though, was the same RBs running the same plays. Sort of like when McDoom came into the game - everyone on both sidelines, in the booth, in the stands, and on TV sets throughout the country, knew that an end-around was coming. Sort of like when Peppers came in for a wildcat snap - everyone on both sidelines, in the booth, in the stands, and on TV sets throughout the country, knew that he was going to keep it.
I definitely can see that with the Pepcat and the end-arounds. I kept thinking they were setting up OSU for Peppers to throw it, but then he never did. I guess I just assumed/hoped that it would be way too obvious what play you're calling if you always use the same personnel for those plays. It would seem like a dead giveaway and such a terrible idea that I figured that wouldn't be the case, but you may be right.
I wouldn't be surprised. I was looking for patterns, but lost interest as the offense became incompetent. Something was tipping the opposing D to the plays we were running. After Minny I don't think anyone bought a single fake or misdirection we ran all year.
I would hope something was learned from that.
This is a fantastic explanation for why we were so predictable on offense. It also fits with M's outdated old school philosophy of "we're gonna run our plays, and go ahead and try and stop us." With all the advances in analytics and film breakdown, tendencies must be easier to discover, especially if it's blatantly obvious and unchanging. Could you imagine OSU going, "OK, when Charbonnet is in, the play is going HERE." I certainly could.
On a positive note, Matt Weiss seems like just the guy to point out the flaws with this approach, so if that is what we aew doing, maybe it will get fixed.
Subtract one big gift of a run against Minnesota and Charbonnet’s average wasn’t very good. He lacked quickness and decisiveness to the point where I wonder if he was still dealing with the after affects of his injury.
Haskins can easily be a 1000 yard back if given the opportunity.
He lacked quickness and decisiveness to the point where I wonder if he was still dealing with the after affects of his injury.
Not saying you're wrong, but I just thought he had the bad luck of poor play calls & poor execution by the offense. He rarely had open running lanes to run through. There's only so much you can do when defenders are blocking all the holes and/or already in the backfield. Granted, Haskins did a good job of cutbacks and being patient to see if holes would develop and/or going somewhere other than where the play was designed. But, overall my impression was that Charbonnet didn't have a lot to work with rather than he was doing something wrong (and Haskins got better blocking), but that's just what I saw at first look.
Well, if there was a set group of plays Charbonnet was part of, perhaps that group of plays just didn't work well.
I'm not saying those upthread are right about that or not. But I can think of a few plays that only got run when Corum was in. And they were much more counter-pull-Harbaugh-esque when Haskins was in.
If the basket of plays Charbonnet had just didn't play to his strengths, or weren't working, it may have nothing to do with his play that things didn't work out.
RB is a position that is affected by every other:
- Offensive Play calling (running into loaded fronts or being highly predictable)
- QB/WR Play (inability to complete passes downfield)
- OLine play (Inability to block)
- THEN quality of RB
The only time I have seen the quality of running back make a difference are their ability to see cut back lanes, missing obvious holes, or falling down when a finger touches them... But, those holes are only there if the OC, Oline, QB and Receivers are all doing their part. There is a reason the RB is one of the easiest positions for RB to come in and find success.
Half empty. There's talent in the room but the usage is a big question mark for me. Also we seem to be hoping one of them has a Higdon type of impact this year. I know he rushed for 1000+ yds but that isn't the ceiling I'm hoping for.
Also we seem to be hoping one of them has a Higdon type of impact this year.
Higdon was good because UM was not terrible at the QB position like they were the first half of '19 and all of '20. If the QB can keep the offense moving, Haskins & co. will be just fine. Higdon had great breakaway speed if he found a lane, probably more so than anyone on the roster. He ran a sub 4.5 40 at the combine. I don't think any of our current backs can do that. But, I do think Haskins is more patient and is better at cutbacks and can run through tackles better than Higdon. If I had a choice between the two I'd take Higdon if you had a dominant line, but Haskins if your o-line was just OK (which is what I expect in '21).
I thought his combine measureables were pretty impressive. I guess I never felt like he could take over a game if we needed him to, unlike Edwards-Helaire, Etienne, Dobbins, or Jonathan Taylor