OT: Very much OT: Daughter/Lawyer career choice advice

As a first-generation lawyer who didn't bother applying to UM Law because I would have been able to hear the laughter from my basement, . . .

. . . just tell her to stop watching TV legal dramas now.

While in school, she should try to get a non-legal job at a firm, such as a runner (assuming firms still use those). That will allow her to see what the daily practice of law is like up close.

I only know one person who successfully pursued the career they wanted at that age, became ultra successful and made a crap ton of money, and this person is easily the most miserable human being I've ever known. That is not hyperbole. Believe me, I used to be married to her.

Do you have an email (or an email set up for purposes of answering your question) that I could send my advice to?  (gmail makes it easy to set up a new account)

Hi OP! I'm an attorney and I am happy to talk with you and your daughter if you want. Are you looking for advice here in this thread? Or would you/she rather talk on the phone (I live in Minnesota).

You've already won. She chose to be your daughter. Now if she has any of your traits then she likely will track and receive good advice and make good decisions. Additionally this is an excellent resource as this fanbase has opposable thumbs.

We are immortal through our children and the DNA milieu and/or immersed cultural upbringing. Some evidence of that is this team led by this coach and the Team leaders he has spawned mixed with choosing the right amenable recruits.

I went to law school and am a lawyer but regret doing so. I feel like I'm stuck in this job I don't really enjoy just because I have a law degree, so I should be using it. Hopefully I'll be transitioning to another career in the next few years, though. On the other hand, some people really enjoy practicing law, even with all of the long hours it requires.

Also make sure she is ready to handle the amount of debt she is going to be taking on with law school (plus undergrad). This is assuming you or other family members won't be footing the bill.

Married one. The field of law is incredibly vast. Far more so than I ever would have imagined. A few things I've picked up:

• The niche of law you choose as an attorney is as important as any education decision. It's a tough road to change to a different niche after spending time in one. Doing so typically results in starting over.
   
• Some niches are far more combative, negative, and draining than others. I've seen what personal injury does to someone day in and day out. It's brutal, constant arguing, fighting, snark, sarcasm, trickery - the worst parts of communication (or lack thereof)
   
• Don't go through with the entire program unless it's a passion. I'm friends with quite a few attorneys who want out, but paid 150k+ for the degree, and just can't get out of it.
   
• Most attorneys don't make crazy high six figures (it's like pro ball in that way, the majority make the league minimum, which is still quite comfortable)
   
• Where you live is where you practice law, and affects quite a lot; clientele, income, satisfaction, etc. I mention this because I'm in tech and don't have the same constraints.
   
• It can take successful lawyers a decade or more to pay off the student loans for the degree

Now, there have been some benefits of course; the income has propelled the fam, knowledge of the law helps out almost daily - keeps you out of sticky situations and gets you out of some that most people would feel helpless in, and contracts are never a mystery. Attorneys are (from my experience) highly social creatures and rely on networking for business, etc so it can be pretty exciting.

All of that may seem superficial or inapplicable so apologies if so. Just sharing what my takeaways have been over the last 10 years. 

This post is fine.  

I am not a lawyer so I will withhold my opinion (2nd hand from lawyers) on the profession and refrain from sharing the many great lawyer jokes.  

On the constructive side, I know many successful lawyers and prosecutors that didn’t decide on law school until after graduating and working for a few years.  The only two people I know that went to law school right out of undergrad (Bolt and Michigan law) hated the law firm jobs they took after graduating. One is a public defender and the other quit law.

Even a week at a law practice would be insightful for her.  Maybe someone on this board can help. Also, since undergrads often change majors, especially when pre something like premed or prelaw, she has plenty of options.  

The point of my post is she is young and will have plenty of time to figure this out.  Just make sure neither of you stress about it and help her enjoy these next 5-6 years of school while she explores her options.  

My buddy was telling me about his summer vacation with his family and brother-in-law's family. BiL spent the entire week miserably reading and revising a huge contract for some big corporate merger or acquisition. The wife said this is basically his life every day and he hates it but is hoping to make partner in 5 years. He'd been at it for over 5 years already. I don't know what the partnership track is at most firms but this was a large firm in a big city. Sounded like a meager existence.

On the other hand, I know attorneys who make a good living and don't kill themselves but are not in corporate law and seem to have done well with investing in property or businesses and the law is more of a side thing they keep for their own investments and partnerships.

This is early to be talking about this. I have a few suggestions:

1. Do not major in pre-law. Pre-law is disfavored by law schools. Her application would be at a disadvantage. 

2. She needs to maximize her GPA. Ideally avoid STEM and be careful about taking specific professors who give many Bs and Cs. If she wants to do IP law, this may change things. 4.0 undergrad GPA or better if possible will go a long way. 

3. If her goal is UM law, she doesn’t need to go to UM undergrad. 

4. She needs to understand what being a lawyer is like. There are fewer trial lawyers every day. Salaries are extremely bimodal—you’re likely to start either under $100k or above $200k with not much in between. You said her dream is a degree. A degree is not a job. A degree is a means to a job. 

5. Beef up the resume with something law related or something interesting. Some schools actually prefer some full-time, post-undergrad work experience. 

6. The profession is brutal. Many of us suffer from addiction issues. More suffer from a lack of work-life balance. The job is often not as fun as the degree, which isn’t necessarily fun. At large firms, which tend to be the most prestigious, working 70 hour/weeks is typical. Billable hours are brutal.

7. Don’t be afraid to re-take the LSAT. It’s a learnable test. Schools that say you should only take once are full of it. 

8. Be careful about burn out. A lot of people who grind hard in high school plateau in undergrad and, when things ratchet up even more in law school, do not thrive. She needs to have a life and enjoy school. She needs to have a life outside of school. Your plan sounds pretty intense. 

9. I’ve never heard of this 5th year of high school, but be careful. Undergrad GPA is calculated by the law school admissions council based on ALL credits, not just the degree-granting school. Those may factor into her GPA when she applies. 

best of luck to her 

Keep in mind that she will have way more clarity as a college sophomore/junior then she will as a high school sophomore. So many people are pre-law/pre-med etc going in to school, and then change their mind quickly. No need to decide anything at this point, although never too early to kick the tires. 

I might have to bookmark this thread as my high school sophomore daughter is in a similar boat. Mock trial is the only extracurricular she has shown any interest in and aptitude for.

I've tried to convince her that sales is more fun and generally people don't suffer grievous consequences but to no avail.

The most common response lawyers give people that say they want to go to law school/be a lawyer is "don't." Just something to keep in perspective. I agree that she should give some serious consideration to whether this is actually what she wants to do before jumping in. Trying to work for a firm or legal department is a good suggestion, since a legal career is usually very different from how it's portrayed/how people expect it to be.

In terms of practical advice, if she does decide she wants to go to law school, GPA and LSAT are the real keys. What law school you go to is incredibly important for finding opportunities, while undergrad is relatively unimportant. I.e. you're much better off going to Wayne St. for undergrad and M for law school, than M for undergrad and Wayne St. for law school. So while doing great at a great undergrad is obviously preferrable, you'll likely be better situated applying with a near 4.0 from Wayne than a 3.0 from M. In some ways sad, but many (most?) law schools are just number whores. And doesn't sound like your daughter is leaning private, but there's no reason whatsoever to go to a private school for undergrad. The kids at M's law school that came from Ivies were getting the same jobs as those that went to M for undergrad, just with a lot more debt.

For LSAT, not sure if it's still the case but Powerscore was far and away the best set of books. Doing those books (used to be called the Bibles) and then a million practice tests (they release the old LSATs) seems to be the best way to prep.

I'm M '88 and M Law '91.  Second generation American, first generation college and lawyer.  Went to law school because I've always enjoyed verbal jousting and politics -- turns out I'm a limousine Marxist -- but before I went to law school I had no meaningful exposure to what a career in law would be like.  That was a mistake that I'd strongly counsel against.  

Gathered lots of debt because it was my only option, and thought I could pay it off fastest by serving my corporate overlords for a brief period at Big Law.  After about two years of experiencing soul rot, I quit (there was line outside my Big Law office door with others asking how they, too, could give up the golden handcuffs) and became a public defender.  That was long before there was any meaningful loan forgiveness.  Most of my friends from M Law (and at the firm) were unhappy with their career paths and told me I was the only lawyer they knew who loved the practice.  Seven years of PD work proved my limit as the low wages, heavy caseload, and exposure to secondary trauma began taking it's toll.  Took me in total 11 years to pay off my law school debt.  Didn't tell any of my PD friends I paid it off because most were still suffering with no end in sight.

I'm now in my 33rd year of practice and mostly still like it, but am closing in on retirement and looking forward to it.  Solo for most of my post-PD practice, but now head up a four-lawyer firm, mostly criminal defense and civil rights litigation.  I've done reasonably well financially, but the work takes its toll (stress related) and most that I know still don't really like it all that much.  I'd do it all again, maybe hope to make a few less mistakes, and would be happy to speak with your daughter (phone/email/Zoom) as I'm in Portland, Oregon.  

steven@sherlagdemuniz.com