Here’s my Debord defense, which I’ve stated before with the following caveats:
1. He was not a great head coach, like a lot of successful coordinators.
2. By the late-2000s the game had clearly passed him by.
3. For this reason I didn’t want him back at Michigan in any offensive capacity after he left in 2007.
4. I’m not related to him in any way.
Having said all that, Mike Debord was one of the best coordinators in Michigan history. Look at his record below and disagree without falling back on “his play calling was unoriginal” or “he didn’t stay up to speed with the latest trends”.
Carr’s record with Debord as OC(5 seasons):
52-11 for a winning percentage of 82.5%.
4 out of the 5 seasons they won 10 games. The only season they didn’t was 2007 when the defense under Ron English was atrocious and he had a damaged Henne at QB.
Carr’s record without Debord as OC(8 seasons):
70-29 for a winning percentage of 70.7%
Only 2 of the 8 seasons did they win 10 games and they never lost fewer than 3 games.
I appreciate Brian’s opinions and analysis but this is one he’s always been off with. They were much more successful with him as OC then without and the best period of Michigan football in the last 35+ years was the 5 seasons with him calling plays.
The idea that Debord was terrible is one of my least favorite of Brian's opinions. Now I completely understand the game has passed him by, that he was a bad head coach and that he failed to adapt late in his career. But look at the numbers below, Mike Debord was an excellent offensive coordinator at Michigan.
Lloyd Carr coached for 13 years:
His record without Debord as OC was 70-29, which is a 70.7 winning percentage(8 years)
His record with Debord as OC was 52-9, which is an 85.2 winning percentage(5 years)
That's a 15% difference between having Debord or having someone else.
As a comparison look at the following:
Urban Meyer won 83% of his games with Dan Mullen as his OC
Pete Carroll won 82.8% of his games with Norm Chow as his OC
So statistically speaking, Lloyd Carr with Debord as OC had a better record than Meyer with Mullen or Carroll with Chow.
Again, he had his shortcomings but I strongly disagree with anyone who says Debord was terrible as an OC at Michigan.
Been hearing a lot about some attrition and I found it interesting Harbaugh didn’t mention Walker when speaking about the RBs. Maybe I’m reading too much into it but he was literally mentioning walk ons but never mentioned Walker.
Year 3 is in the books. And this is what it looks like. Bad QB, bad O-line play and WRs that don’t scare anyone. 2 co-offensive coordinators and Harbaugh and this the best they could do?
Marines core function: amphibious assaults
Largest amphibious assault in world history: DDay
Number of Marines on DDay...none
It’s ok, the Army did just fine by itself
Dude, take your medicine. The title of the thread is “Smack Talk”, not sure why you would take anything on this thread seriously. The whole fun in this thread is talking trash.
Your service doesn’t mean as much as mine did unless you think sleeping with hookers in a port in Singapore is valiant.
Although I do consider that brave considering all the STDs you could have been subjected to!
ISIS doesn’t have a Navy
The Taliban doesn’t have a Navy
Al Qaeda doesn’t have a Navy
Iraq barely had a Navy
I love it when Navy people talk about this game and how often they’ve won it this century. Of course you could focus on this game when you weren’t doing any fighting over the last 16 years.
“But Navy SEALs”...yes, they’re awesome, but they’re less than one half of 1% of the entire Navy. What has the rest of the Navy been doing since the War on Terror started?
The Army’s been fighting constantly and so have the Marines and the Air Force has provided critical logistical and air support throughout.
I can’t root for a service that has done so little and talked so much trash. Have your football game, the Army will keep fighting.
-Former Army Officer
He’s a true Sophomore, so how would it work if he had to sit out a year? Could that be counted as his redshirt year and he would have two years left after he sat out?
No one knows if/when the sanctions are coming so how would Patterson have been able to communicate to Michigan that he's coming?
If he comes before sanctions then he has to sit out a year, which means he would have been no threat to Speight, who only has one year left.
If he told Michigan he would come if there were sanctions, then Michigan surely would not have communicated this to Speight before they received confirmation that the sanctions were coming and Patterson would not have to sit out a year which I'm not even sure if the NCAA knows yet.
"Happy Memorial Day"?!!!
This is the most infuriating post ever...it's not a happy day. It's supposed to be a solemn day of remembrance for those who died serving their country. What is happy about that?
It's also not a recognition of veterans for their service, that's what Veterans Day is for.
Please understand the purpose of this day, it might be our most important holiday.
I served 5 years on the Army and lost 14 fellow soldiers so I'm admittedly sensitive about this but cmon man...would you tell someone going to a wake or funeral "have a good time". Would you show up at a Memorial service and tell everyone what a happy day it is?
I like the three day weekend too, but you owe it to the people who died to understand the meaning of Memorial Day.
That's why this hurts so much, because the roster will graduate so much this year. Look at it this way:
2016 had Hokes great 2012 class as 5th year guys with some talent sprinkled throughout the roster to fill the gaps.
Next year the 2013 class will be 5th year guys and while that class started off great it has had a ton of attrition(Bosch, Fox, LTT and now Hill, Thomas, Charlton, etc.). That wouldn't be so bad if the 2014 class (4th year guys) hadnt been Hoke's "I'm about to be fired and the recruits know it" class along with the Harbaugh transition class. Those will be the upperclassmen next year...not good.
2018 will be better but Harbaughs 2 great classes(2016 and 2017)will only be 2nd and 3rd year guys, and not mature enough to make a great team out of just yet.
2019 will start the Harbaugh "reload instead of rebuild" years.
Preseason all conference who didn't contribute 50% of what was expected of him? Why am I trash and why should I be banned? For saying he did nothing of significance all year despite the lofty expectations of every one on the board?
Assume Alabama and Clemson get in.
Hope Penn State loses, then root for OSU to beat Wisconsin in the Big Ten championship. That eliminates the other Big Ten teams.
Hope Colorado beats Washington in the PAC championship, then hope ok State beats OU.
That would leave Michigan competing with 2othrr 2 loss teams for the final spot: Oklahoma State(who lost to Central Michigan) and Colorado. I know Colorado would be a conference champion but Michigan did beat them and maybe that's enough to overcome.
Kalis, Magnuson and Braden were solid late and not very well coached early in their careers but we need better offensive line play so I won't miss them at all. Haven't been able to run the ball in a big game or a big spot in 6 years.
I'm a lifelong Michigan fan and for those of you too young to remember, there was a time when Michigan was considered somewhat of a joke in certain circles because they hadn't won a national championship since 1948. They came close a few years but just couldn't get it done and for as great as Bo was, he wasn't able to win one. All those great teams under Bo, Mo and Lloyd with all of those great players but never the championship, and for a while, it didn't seem like they would ever win one, coming up with a series of bad losses when winning any one of them would have led them to a national title:
-Brown throwing all of those picks against an ND team that Michigan outplayed
-Bo kicking to Rocket TWICE...TWICE!!!!!!!!!!
-Losing to a top 5 Miami(YTM) at home when they were up by 2 scores in the 4th quarter
-MSU tripping Desmond on the final play of the game
-That fucking Hail Mary that I refuse to watch to this day
-Getting rocked by Washington in the Rose bowl
I can go on and on with the bad losses but if you weren't there to watch them you can't understand how frustrating it was being a Michigan fan. Every year they fielded a top 5 team, and every year they found a way to come up short. Any conversation you had with an opposing fan ended with them saying "Michigan's overrated, they haven't won a national championship since 1948", and I could never find a way to come back at them because it was true. For a very long time, Michigan WAS overrated.
Then in 1997, Charles Woodson, more than any other player, changed all of that. He was the championship player that past Michigan teams just didn't have. Every time Michigan looked like they would lose a game and find a way to piss away another year he was there:
-He set the tone against a top 5 Colorado team that year with his play and attitude. It didn't matter that Colorado was considered the better team. Michigan had the best player on the field and that helped the team confidence.
-That interception against a very good, Nick Saban coached, MSU team.
-The rock of that dominant defense against PSU.
-The end zone INT and kick return against OSU that sealed the Heisman
-And the end zone pick against Washington State when it looked like Michigan was about to be down 14-0 and were about to piss away another national championship with a Rose Bowl loss.
Now, for whatever else other fans can say about Michigan in recent years, fans can always point back to that 1997 team, and then ask "when was the last time your team won the nationa championship?"; "when was the last time you had a Heisman winner?"; and "has your school ever had a defensive player win the Heisman?"
Thanks, Charles. If I live 50 more years I don't think I'll ever see a better player wear the Maize and Blue.
Trust in Harbaugh, I know, I know...but there are some potential gaps on the roster that are concerning.
OT and DT- Ideally, you want to get your OL and DL guys a redhsirt, then another year for weight/strength gains before having them see significant action but it doesn't look like they'll have that option in 2017. I have no doubt that Harbaugh will fill the gap next year with 5 star recruits but they can't be expected to play significant minutes in 2017.
At Tackle, losing Hamilton hurts, especially after losing LTT earlier in the year, now they're looking at shifting positions on the OL/TE to fill it, which isn't ideal.
At DT in 2017 they have Mone, Hurst Jr, Pallante and Dwumfour...that's it. Mone and Hurst should be a solid pair of starters but Pallante doesn't look like a long term answer and Dwumfour will only be a RS Fr with no experience. Being weak up the middle is why OSU destroyed Michigan with their running game the past 3 years so this is even more concerning than the OT issues.
And all of this isn't taking into account injuries (like Mone, Glasgow, Ojemudia) or early draft entries(If Hurst plays well he could possibly go in the 3-4 round range).
Getting a DT is huge but they need more in this year's class. Looking at the depth chart they lose Glasgow and Godin on the interior along with Wormley(who can move inside if necessary) after this season. Assuming Jordan Elliot signs with Texas that leaves Michigan with Mone and Hurst Jr. at DT in 2017 with a RS FR Dwumfour and Brady Pallante as backup DTs. That's not good, especially after seeing how Indiana and OSU tore through Michigan and wore down the D'line this season because they didn't have enough depth to rotate through when Glasgow went down. If they don't get another DT in this class that will leave them with...1 DT in the last 3 recruiting classes and you can't reasonably expect a True Freshman to come in and play significant minutes as a DT in 2017.
Not sure if you watched the 95 or 96 seasons, but Griese was not a good QB then. He had a dramatic turnaround under Debord in his senior year but before that he was really, really not good(I mean Gardner bad).
Case in point...remember that game where Timmy B ran for 313 yards against Ohio? You might ask yourself why they didn't win that game by more than 8 points, which they surely would have done if Griese hadn't thrown 3 horrendous INTs to keep Ohio in the game.
I love Griese for winning that national championship but his highlight reel should only include games from 1997 becasue his other seasons as QB were not good enough.
-Herman has been a hugely successful OC under one of the great coaches in the game, Urban Meyer.
-Mcelwain was also a hugely successful OC under one of the great coaches in the game, Nick Saban.
-Both Saban and Meyer have a proven track record of developing future head coaches.
-Herman might get more credit for having success with multiple QBs but Mcelwain had his success in the SEC, which is a much better conference than the Big Ten.
-The only difference between the 2 is that Mcelwain has 3 years of head coaching experience turning around a perennial doormat in CSU and Herman has...nothing. No head coaching experience and no success away from Urban Meyer.
Can someone explain to me how Brian thinks the Mcelwain hire was "underwhelming" but that Tom Herman would somehow be a home run hire for us?
I was an Army Officer and there's a long standing Army tradition that "Officers(Leaders) eat last". I think each of the services has a variation of this saying.
I don't get the Schiano hatred either. He was a good coach at a disaster of school. Also, everyone brings up Mullen's record as OC at Florida under Urban but no one brings up Schiano's record as the DC at Miami(YTM) for 2 seasons(99-00). Those defenses that he coordinated were filthy! The 99 defense was 13th nationally and the 00 defense was 5th nationally. He helped recruit and develop Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Sean Taylor, etc. Why doesn't anyone mention this about him?
Sorry folks, Mattison is very overrated. I know all the focus is on the offensive problems, and rightfully so, but his defenses have folded against every good team they've played. Anything outside the standard pro style offense(tempo, spread) gives this team problems. And how many times have they let up a key score right before the half or at the end of a game? That end of half drive turned the game around for Ohio State. He's just as responsible for this tema's failure as the offense.
Not to beat a dead horse but I want to kill the "Debord sucked" argument once and for all. In the 5 years Debord was an OC for Carr Michigan went 52-11 for a winning percentage of 82.5.
In the 4 years that Dan Mullen was the OC for Urban Meyer Florida went 44-9 for a winning percentage of 83.
In summary, Urban Meyer's record with Dan Mullen as his OC was only .5 % better as a head coach than Lloyd Carr's record was with Mike Debord!
There are only 5 HC/OC combos in the past 20 years from the power 5 conferences that won more than 80% of their games(with a minimum of 3 years together):
Pete Carroll(Norm Chow) 2001-2004 with a record of 41-10(80%)
Pete Carroll(Lane Kiffin and Steve Sarkisian)2005-2008 with a record of 46-6(88%)
Urban Meyer(Dan Mullen)2005-2008 with a record of 44-9(83%)
Nick Saban(Jim Mcelwain)2008-2011 with a record of 48-6(88%)
Lloyd Carr(Mike Debord)1997-99 and 2006-07 with a record of 52-11(82.5%)
Look at that list again and tell me Mike Debord wasn't a good OC. But I already know the board's response, "but he didn't run the spread, so he sucks!".
Sorry guys, this is getting ridiculous. I'm not the world's biggest Debord fan and I'm not related to him(nor do I want him back at Michigan) but I just don't get the hatred towards him. In no way was "the loyalty to Debord the biggest complaint of the Carr years". Yes, he was predictable, yes he failed to update his offense according to the times but the guy was hugely successful. I'm going to provide some facts below and you guys can make your "yeah, but..." arguments about his tenture at Michigan.
In the 8 years under Carr without Debord as OC
-70-29 record for a 70.7 winning percentage.
-Average record during that time was 8.7 wins and 3.6 losses
-Only (2)10 win seasons
-Never had a season with less than 3 losses
-Had 4 seasons with at least 4 losses(and 1 season with 5 losses)
In the 5 years under Carr with Debord as OC
-52-11 record for a 82.5 winning percentage(a better winning percentage that Pete Carroll had with Norm Chow as his OC)
-Average record during that time was 10.4 wins and 2.2 losses
-4 out of the 5 seasons were 10 win seasons, with the lone outlier the 9 win season in 07 when Henne and Hart were hurt for most of the season
-Lloyd's only 3 seasons with fewer than 3 losses came during Debord's tenure(wow, it hurts to write that)
I know a lot of people on this board are too young to have watched these games but it would help to look at the facts instead of just relying on Brian's hatred of Debord. I've been watching Michigan football since the mid-80's so I'm familiar with this entire period. The offense was a disaster in 95 and 96 before Debord took over. Then, things got significantly better in 97-99. The offense wasn't a juggernaut(because Lloyd didn't want it to be), but they helped the team win.Griese was a train wreck before Debord turned into a 3rd team All American in one season! Look at all the talent Michigan developed during his first tenure...it's not an accident that they started mass producing O-lineman and stud WR's during his time.
Then he cameback in 2006 to fix what was clearly broken.The 2005 offense was a mess. The O-line stunk, they couldn't run the ball and Henne had regressed in his 2nd season. That 2006 offense was electric until Manningham went down midway through the season. Both he and Henne were in the Heisman discussion but once Manningham went down, they made a conscious decision to play it safe and rely on the defense to win games. As I stated above, the 2007 offense wasn't great but that had more to do with the injuries than anything else.
Again, he wan't great but Debord was much better than this board gives him credit for.
Good news indeed. I didn't see anything saying if he would receive some type of redshirt though, which would be even better news. Definitely can't hurt to have another interior lineman to choose from.
I agree with this point. I know the O-line has issues but I think the offensive problems are larger than that. -Can't believe how slow the running backs look. I know Brian talks about it being OK to not have breakaway speed but it's not OK if yu also have no quickness or burst, and that's what it lookslike with Green and Smith. Never seen UM running backs this slow. -They don't have any game breakers at the WR position. I know Funchess is a big, physical receiver that can win a jump ball down the field but I don't think teams respect him, or any other receiver, as a true deep threat. This allows the other team to cheat the safeties up, leaving more potential defenders in the throwing lanes. Maybe he doesn't know the offense yet, but Canteen needs to see the field as a true deep threat, something I don't think Darboh or Chesson can provide. Teams won't back up unless you consistently beat them deep. -The game might have passed Mattison by. He was a great 90's coordinator but has struggled to adjust when teams spread him out. What's the signature defensive performance of the last 4 years? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually trying to think of one. -Brian was right on Twitter, putting Manning as the coach of the DBs might not have been the best idea Hoke's ever had.
As Logan 88 pointed out above, with as poorly as Michigan played last year PSU still needed a missed GW kick by Gibbons, a miraculous last drive where Stribling was exactly where he needed to be twice but somehow wasn't able to make the play, and 4 OTs at home just to get the win. This year's game is at Michigan and, looking at PSU's roster, they only have 71 scholarship players as a result of the NCAA reductions. That's 14 bullets they won't have in case of an injury or poor perfromance. Think about what a disastrous effect Michigan's 2010 and 2011 classes have had on the team and remember that even with those bad classes they were still at, or close to, the 85 scholarship limit. Having only 71 players will really hurt PSU this year. Michigan wins easily.
New OC has to be someone who can work with Michigan's current offensive personnel. Can't go through another 3 year transition even if some on here would like to go back to the spread. How about a young assistant from Alabama or Stanford, who both play the way Hoke wants Michigan to play?
But my point with moving Williams to Tackle was more about depth in case someone was injured. Let's say LTT is ready to be a back up...will he back up both spots or just one? And if he's forced to play, who will his back up be? Fox? One of the true FR? One of the Guards? Williams, even at 285lbs, is a better option than all of those I just listed because of his significant playing experience.
I think it's more important to have Tackle depth than TE depth and right now Michigan doesn't even have reliable starters at the position.At TE they have Funchess, Butt and Paskorz and they always have the option of going with a TE and H-Back set instead of two pure TE's which would help with funchess' blocking issues. I think they can work around lack of TE depth easier than they could lack of Tackle depth.
No reply to my mention of 3 tackle sets? I got angry just writing it so I thought for sure it would get a rise out of someone else.
Anyway, I'm just not thrilled with the Tackle spot next year. Not sure how much you can rely on Braden after the last year. First, he was considered so good that they were putting him at Guard just to get him on the field and then, during the season when they were considering starting eveything but the water cooler at Guard, his name wasn't even mentioned. Ok, he's not a guard, but he's since been passed at Tackle by his 285lb classmate.
Having a 3rd year player with significant game experience at backup Tackle is a far better option than having 2 RS FR and 2 True FR as your backup Tackles.
Remember, LTT was considered a project coming out of HS and Fox is coming off a major leg injury so you can't expect either of them to contribute next year and there's no way a True FR will play. Leaving you with just 2 legitimate options at Tackle, Magnuson and Braden. Of those two options, one is 285lbs and has only played guard at the college level and the other is a RS SO who has never played anywhere at the college level.
Not sure why people are ok with the Tackle position next year with so little experience. And remember, there's no guarantee Magnuson or Braden 1)stay healthy, or 2)are as good as expected next year.
As for TE depth, they could always move Funchess back there in a pinch(as long as the other WRs come along)
And the coaching staff that loves to play two TEs also has been known to play three Tackles.
Any word on if the coaches plan on moving Thomas to safety for the bowl practices? Seems like that would be a better use of practice time than giving him snaps at Nickel, where he'll only play if Countess gets hurt.
Also, IIRC, Williams was a Tackle in HS. I know he's had issues blocking but wouldn't it be better if they moved him to Tackle for added depth? Looking at the Tackles for next year, it's Magnuson, Braden and 4 FR(LTT, Fox and the 2 incoming FR). At TE, they'll have Funchess, Butt, Paskorz(who would have played more if not for the injury, a la Kwiatkowski) and Bunting(EE). They're much more set at TE than Tackle, so it would make sense to move the experienced depth to Tackle. Right now Williams is the same weight as Magnuson and he's only that small because he's been trying to keep weight off, unlike Magnuson. Again, I know he's not a great blocker but with added weight and improved technique, he could potentially keep us from having to play a FR at Tackle.
Recent Comments
I'm not very good at math...Is 27 less than 100?
Here’s my Debord defense, which I’ve stated before with the following caveats:
1. He was not a great head coach, like a lot of successful coordinators.
2. By the late-2000s the game had clearly passed him by.
3. For this reason I didn’t want him back at Michigan in any offensive capacity after he left in 2007.
4. I’m not related to him in any way.
Having said all that, Mike Debord was one of the best coordinators in Michigan history. Look at his record below and disagree without falling back on “his play calling was unoriginal” or “he didn’t stay up to speed with the latest trends”.
Carr’s record with Debord as OC(5 seasons):
52-11 for a winning percentage of 82.5%.
4 out of the 5 seasons they won 10 games. The only season they didn’t was 2007 when the defense under Ron English was atrocious and he had a damaged Henne at QB.
Carr’s record without Debord as OC(8 seasons):
70-29 for a winning percentage of 70.7%
Only 2 of the 8 seasons did they win 10 games and they never lost fewer than 3 games.
I appreciate Brian’s opinions and analysis but this is one he’s always been off with. They were much more successful with him as OC then without and the best period of Michigan football in the last 35+ years was the 5 seasons with him calling plays.
The idea that Debord was terrible is one of my least favorite of Brian's opinions. Now I completely understand the game has passed him by, that he was a bad head coach and that he failed to adapt late in his career. But look at the numbers below, Mike Debord was an excellent offensive coordinator at Michigan.
Lloyd Carr coached for 13 years:
His record without Debord as OC was 70-29, which is a 70.7 winning percentage(8 years)
His record with Debord as OC was 52-9, which is an 85.2 winning percentage(5 years)
That's a 15% difference between having Debord or having someone else.
As a comparison look at the following:
Urban Meyer won 83% of his games with Dan Mullen as his OC
Pete Carroll won 82.8% of his games with Norm Chow as his OC
So statistically speaking, Lloyd Carr with Debord as OC had a better record than Meyer with Mullen or Carroll with Chow.
Again, he had his shortcomings but I strongly disagree with anyone who says Debord was terrible as an OC at Michigan.
No one knows if/when the sanctions are coming so how would Patterson have been able to communicate to Michigan that he's coming?
If he comes before sanctions then he has to sit out a year, which means he would have been no threat to Speight, who only has one year left.
If he told Michigan he would come if there were sanctions, then Michigan surely would not have communicated this to Speight before they received confirmation that the sanctions were coming and Patterson would not have to sit out a year which I'm not even sure if the NCAA knows yet.
Speight leaving has nothing to do with Patterson.
He wasn't listed in the write up above. I heard rumors about him leaving but didn't think it was definite.
Bet Speight transfers to Virginia...pro style offense, close to home and their QB is set to graduate.
I'm a lifelong Michigan fan and for those of you too young to remember, there was a time when Michigan was considered somewhat of a joke in certain circles because they hadn't won a national championship since 1948. They came close a few years but just couldn't get it done and for as great as Bo was, he wasn't able to win one. All those great teams under Bo, Mo and Lloyd with all of those great players but never the championship, and for a while, it didn't seem like they would ever win one, coming up with a series of bad losses when winning any one of them would have led them to a national title:
-Brown throwing all of those picks against an ND team that Michigan outplayed
-Bo kicking to Rocket TWICE...TWICE!!!!!!!!!!
-Losing to a top 5 Miami(YTM) at home when they were up by 2 scores in the 4th quarter
-MSU tripping Desmond on the final play of the game
-That fucking Hail Mary that I refuse to watch to this day
-Getting rocked by Washington in the Rose bowl
I can go on and on with the bad losses but if you weren't there to watch them you can't understand how frustrating it was being a Michigan fan. Every year they fielded a top 5 team, and every year they found a way to come up short. Any conversation you had with an opposing fan ended with them saying "Michigan's overrated, they haven't won a national championship since 1948", and I could never find a way to come back at them because it was true. For a very long time, Michigan WAS overrated.
Then in 1997, Charles Woodson, more than any other player, changed all of that. He was the championship player that past Michigan teams just didn't have. Every time Michigan looked like they would lose a game and find a way to piss away another year he was there:
-He set the tone against a top 5 Colorado team that year with his play and attitude. It didn't matter that Colorado was considered the better team. Michigan had the best player on the field and that helped the team confidence.
-That interception against a very good, Nick Saban coached, MSU team.
-The rock of that dominant defense against PSU.
-The end zone INT and kick return against OSU that sealed the Heisman
-And the end zone pick against Washington State when it looked like Michigan was about to be down 14-0 and were about to piss away another national championship with a Rose Bowl loss.
Now, for whatever else other fans can say about Michigan in recent years, fans can always point back to that 1997 team, and then ask "when was the last time your team won the nationa championship?"; "when was the last time you had a Heisman winner?"; and "has your school ever had a defensive player win the Heisman?"
Thanks, Charles. If I live 50 more years I don't think I'll ever see a better player wear the Maize and Blue.
Trust in Harbaugh, I know, I know...but there are some potential gaps on the roster that are concerning.
OT and DT- Ideally, you want to get your OL and DL guys a redhsirt, then another year for weight/strength gains before having them see significant action but it doesn't look like they'll have that option in 2017. I have no doubt that Harbaugh will fill the gap next year with 5 star recruits but they can't be expected to play significant minutes in 2017.
At Tackle, losing Hamilton hurts, especially after losing LTT earlier in the year, now they're looking at shifting positions on the OL/TE to fill it, which isn't ideal.
At DT in 2017 they have Mone, Hurst Jr, Pallante and Dwumfour...that's it. Mone and Hurst should be a solid pair of starters but Pallante doesn't look like a long term answer and Dwumfour will only be a RS Fr with no experience. Being weak up the middle is why OSU destroyed Michigan with their running game the past 3 years so this is even more concerning than the OT issues.
And all of this isn't taking into account injuries (like Mone, Glasgow, Ojemudia) or early draft entries(If Hurst plays well he could possibly go in the 3-4 round range).
Getting a DT is huge but they need more in this year's class. Looking at the depth chart they lose Glasgow and Godin on the interior along with Wormley(who can move inside if necessary) after this season. Assuming Jordan Elliot signs with Texas that leaves Michigan with Mone and Hurst Jr. at DT in 2017 with a RS FR Dwumfour and Brady Pallante as backup DTs. That's not good, especially after seeing how Indiana and OSU tore through Michigan and wore down the D'line this season because they didn't have enough depth to rotate through when Glasgow went down. If they don't get another DT in this class that will leave them with...1 DT in the last 3 recruiting classes and you can't reasonably expect a True Freshman to come in and play significant minutes as a DT in 2017.
Not sure if you watched the 95 or 96 seasons, but Griese was not a good QB then. He had a dramatic turnaround under Debord in his senior year but before that he was really, really not good(I mean Gardner bad).
Case in point...remember that game where Timmy B ran for 313 yards against Ohio? You might ask yourself why they didn't win that game by more than 8 points, which they surely would have done if Griese hadn't thrown 3 horrendous INTs to keep Ohio in the game.
I love Griese for winning that national championship but his highlight reel should only include games from 1997 becasue his other seasons as QB were not good enough.
But he did say that he wanted Herman but not Mcelwain. Why? It's very clear Mcelwain has the better resume.
So let me see if I have this correct...
-Herman has been a hugely successful OC under one of the great coaches in the game, Urban Meyer.
-Mcelwain was also a hugely successful OC under one of the great coaches in the game, Nick Saban.
-Both Saban and Meyer have a proven track record of developing future head coaches.
-Herman might get more credit for having success with multiple QBs but Mcelwain had his success in the SEC, which is a much better conference than the Big Ten.
-The only difference between the 2 is that Mcelwain has 3 years of head coaching experience turning around a perennial doormat in CSU and Herman has...nothing. No head coaching experience and no success away from Urban Meyer.
Can someone explain to me how Brian thinks the Mcelwain hire was "underwhelming" but that Tom Herman would somehow be a home run hire for us?
I was an Army Officer and there's a long standing Army tradition that "Officers(Leaders) eat last". I think each of the services has a variation of this saying.
I don't get the Schiano hatred either. He was a good coach at a disaster of school. Also, everyone brings up Mullen's record as OC at Florida under Urban but no one brings up Schiano's record as the DC at Miami(YTM) for 2 seasons(99-00). Those defenses that he coordinated were filthy! The 99 defense was 13th nationally and the 00 defense was 5th nationally. He helped recruit and develop Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Sean Taylor, etc. Why doesn't anyone mention this about him?
Sorry folks, Mattison is very overrated. I know all the focus is on the offensive problems, and rightfully so, but his defenses have folded against every good team they've played. Anything outside the standard pro style offense(tempo, spread) gives this team problems. And how many times have they let up a key score right before the half or at the end of a game? That end of half drive turned the game around for Ohio State. He's just as responsible for this tema's failure as the offense.
Not to beat a dead horse but I want to kill the "Debord sucked" argument once and for all. In the 5 years Debord was an OC for Carr Michigan went 52-11 for a winning percentage of 82.5.
In the 4 years that Dan Mullen was the OC for Urban Meyer Florida went 44-9 for a winning percentage of 83.
In summary, Urban Meyer's record with Dan Mullen as his OC was only .5 % better as a head coach than Lloyd Carr's record was with Mike Debord!
There are only 5 HC/OC combos in the past 20 years from the power 5 conferences that won more than 80% of their games(with a minimum of 3 years together):
Pete Carroll(Norm Chow) 2001-2004 with a record of 41-10(80%)
Pete Carroll(Lane Kiffin and Steve Sarkisian)2005-2008 with a record of 46-6(88%)
Urban Meyer(Dan Mullen)2005-2008 with a record of 44-9(83%)
Nick Saban(Jim Mcelwain)2008-2011 with a record of 48-6(88%)
Lloyd Carr(Mike Debord)1997-99 and 2006-07 with a record of 52-11(82.5%)
Look at that list again and tell me Mike Debord wasn't a good OC. But I already know the board's response, "but he didn't run the spread, so he sucks!".
Sorry guys, this is getting ridiculous. I'm not the world's biggest Debord fan and I'm not related to him(nor do I want him back at Michigan) but I just don't get the hatred towards him. In no way was "the loyalty to Debord the biggest complaint of the Carr years". Yes, he was predictable, yes he failed to update his offense according to the times but the guy was hugely successful. I'm going to provide some facts below and you guys can make your "yeah, but..." arguments about his tenture at Michigan.
In the 8 years under Carr without Debord as OC
-70-29 record for a 70.7 winning percentage.
-Average record during that time was 8.7 wins and 3.6 losses
-Only (2)10 win seasons
-Never had a season with less than 3 losses
-Had 4 seasons with at least 4 losses(and 1 season with 5 losses)
In the 5 years under Carr with Debord as OC
-52-11 record for a 82.5 winning percentage(a better winning percentage that Pete Carroll had with Norm Chow as his OC)
-Average record during that time was 10.4 wins and 2.2 losses
-4 out of the 5 seasons were 10 win seasons, with the lone outlier the 9 win season in 07 when Henne and Hart were hurt for most of the season
-Lloyd's only 3 seasons with fewer than 3 losses came during Debord's tenure(wow, it hurts to write that)
I know a lot of people on this board are too young to have watched these games but it would help to look at the facts instead of just relying on Brian's hatred of Debord. I've been watching Michigan football since the mid-80's so I'm familiar with this entire period. The offense was a disaster in 95 and 96 before Debord took over. Then, things got significantly better in 97-99. The offense wasn't a juggernaut(because Lloyd didn't want it to be), but they helped the team win.Griese was a train wreck before Debord turned into a 3rd team All American in one season! Look at all the talent Michigan developed during his first tenure...it's not an accident that they started mass producing O-lineman and stud WR's during his time.
Then he cameback in 2006 to fix what was clearly broken.The 2005 offense was a mess. The O-line stunk, they couldn't run the ball and Henne had regressed in his 2nd season. That 2006 offense was electric until Manningham went down midway through the season. Both he and Henne were in the Heisman discussion but once Manningham went down, they made a conscious decision to play it safe and rely on the defense to win games. As I stated above, the 2007 offense wasn't great but that had more to do with the injuries than anything else.
Again, he wan't great but Debord was much better than this board gives him credit for.
Good news indeed. I didn't see anything saying if he would receive some type of redshirt though, which would be even better news. Definitely can't hurt to have another interior lineman to choose from.
I agree with this point. I know the O-line has issues but I think the offensive problems are larger than that. -Can't believe how slow the running backs look. I know Brian talks about it being OK to not have breakaway speed but it's not OK if yu also have no quickness or burst, and that's what it lookslike with Green and Smith. Never seen UM running backs this slow. -They don't have any game breakers at the WR position. I know Funchess is a big, physical receiver that can win a jump ball down the field but I don't think teams respect him, or any other receiver, as a true deep threat. This allows the other team to cheat the safeties up, leaving more potential defenders in the throwing lanes. Maybe he doesn't know the offense yet, but Canteen needs to see the field as a true deep threat, something I don't think Darboh or Chesson can provide. Teams won't back up unless you consistently beat them deep. -The game might have passed Mattison by. He was a great 90's coordinator but has struggled to adjust when teams spread him out. What's the signature defensive performance of the last 4 years? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually trying to think of one. -Brian was right on Twitter, putting Manning as the coach of the DBs might not have been the best idea Hoke's ever had.
USC won a road game against a ranked opponent, something Hoke has yet to do in 4 years.
As Logan 88 pointed out above, with as poorly as Michigan played last year PSU still needed a missed GW kick by Gibbons, a miraculous last drive where Stribling was exactly where he needed to be twice but somehow wasn't able to make the play, and 4 OTs at home just to get the win. This year's game is at Michigan and, looking at PSU's roster, they only have 71 scholarship players as a result of the NCAA reductions. That's 14 bullets they won't have in case of an injury or poor perfromance. Think about what a disastrous effect Michigan's 2010 and 2011 classes have had on the team and remember that even with those bad classes they were still at, or close to, the 85 scholarship limit. Having only 71 players will really hurt PSU this year. Michigan wins easily.
Can't hear the press conference. Did he mention anything about keeping the offensive staff or if he's bringing in his own people?
New OC has to be someone who can work with Michigan's current offensive personnel. Can't go through another 3 year transition even if some on here would like to go back to the spread. How about a young assistant from Alabama or Stanford, who both play the way Hoke wants Michigan to play?
But my point with moving Williams to Tackle was more about depth in case someone was injured. Let's say LTT is ready to be a back up...will he back up both spots or just one? And if he's forced to play, who will his back up be? Fox? One of the true FR? One of the Guards? Williams, even at 285lbs, is a better option than all of those I just listed because of his significant playing experience.
I think it's more important to have Tackle depth than TE depth and right now Michigan doesn't even have reliable starters at the position.At TE they have Funchess, Butt and Paskorz and they always have the option of going with a TE and H-Back set instead of two pure TE's which would help with funchess' blocking issues. I think they can work around lack of TE depth easier than they could lack of Tackle depth.
No reply to my mention of 3 tackle sets? I got angry just writing it so I thought for sure it would get a rise out of someone else.
Anyway, I'm just not thrilled with the Tackle spot next year. Not sure how much you can rely on Braden after the last year. First, he was considered so good that they were putting him at Guard just to get him on the field and then, during the season when they were considering starting eveything but the water cooler at Guard, his name wasn't even mentioned. Ok, he's not a guard, but he's since been passed at Tackle by his 285lb classmate.
Having a 3rd year player with significant game experience at backup Tackle is a far better option than having 2 RS FR and 2 True FR as your backup Tackles.
Remember, LTT was considered a project coming out of HS and Fox is coming off a major leg injury so you can't expect either of them to contribute next year and there's no way a True FR will play. Leaving you with just 2 legitimate options at Tackle, Magnuson and Braden. Of those two options, one is 285lbs and has only played guard at the college level and the other is a RS SO who has never played anywhere at the college level.
Not sure why people are ok with the Tackle position next year with so little experience. And remember, there's no guarantee Magnuson or Braden 1)stay healthy, or 2)are as good as expected next year.
As for TE depth, they could always move Funchess back there in a pinch(as long as the other WRs come along)
And the coaching staff that loves to play two TEs also has been known to play three Tackles.
Any word on if the coaches plan on moving Thomas to safety for the bowl practices? Seems like that would be a better use of practice time than giving him snaps at Nickel, where he'll only play if Countess gets hurt.
Also, IIRC, Williams was a Tackle in HS. I know he's had issues blocking but wouldn't it be better if they moved him to Tackle for added depth? Looking at the Tackles for next year, it's Magnuson, Braden and 4 FR(LTT, Fox and the 2 incoming FR). At TE, they'll have Funchess, Butt, Paskorz(who would have played more if not for the injury, a la Kwiatkowski) and Bunting(EE). They're much more set at TE than Tackle, so it would make sense to move the experienced depth to Tackle. Right now Williams is the same weight as Magnuson and he's only that small because he's been trying to keep weight off, unlike Magnuson. Again, I know he's not a great blocker but with added weight and improved technique, he could potentially keep us from having to play a FR at Tackle.