Standard for BBall fouls?
So, I'm not a big BBall fan and really don't watch outside of the UM games (and only recently at that). However, I have been watching FB for a few decades now and somewhat couch my basis for evaluating officiating in that (and noting here that technical fouls ARE NOT CALLED IN FOOTBALL... just for reference).
As such, I've found BBall games incredibly frustrating to watch, winning or losing, due to the officiating (specifically, the inconsistency of the calls, game to game and within the same games). Just tonight - plays with the same amount of contact go uncalled most of the game, then are called, then are ignored. There seems to be an inherent problem with the game when the rules are designed (via the bonus structure) for teams to be expected to commit double-digit fouls per game. In FB, there is always the issue of holding and PI judgement calls, but normally it's obvious to most of the fans when it should be called (and there are not that many calls per game).
Maybe I'm just not experienced enough in watching/evaluating BBall games, so people with more expertise please chime in. Is the officiating (generally, not just UM games) really an issue? Are the calls subject to that much of the whims of the crew (TV Teddy instances aside)? Is this just a Big Ten officiating trend or all CBB?
Edit: I implied this in the OP, but I will explicitly state here: I am not putting today's loss on the officiating. In games where UM has won also, the offiating just seems inconsistent or at times arbitrary )as though the officials feel that each team should have about the same number of fouls, even if one team is playing less physical than the other).February 6th, 2018 at 9:12 PM ^
Refs suck period. I've been a player, coach and a ref in fball and bball. I sucked as a ref cause no matter how hard you try it's impossible to be completely fair.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:40 PM ^
I worked as a soccer referee in my teens. Very easy to be impartial. You wouldn’t know, because you’ve never refereed a game in your life.
February 7th, 2018 at 5:53 AM ^
So you refereed 8 year olds and found that situation easy to be impartial? It does seem pretty easy at that level.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:14 PM ^
When this team shoots terribly from the line.
But it wouldn’t be right without the perennial MGoWhine about officials screwing M.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:53 PM ^
when a hand on the back puts the other team on the line genius
February 7th, 2018 at 1:05 AM ^
it also matters when fouls send the opponent to the bench.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:22 PM ^
Not this again. The refs didn’t screw us. Michigan not making buckets screwed us. Get over it
February 6th, 2018 at 9:23 PM ^
Game turned when Rahk got a UFC style elbow to his exposed midsection while going up for a layup.
White meat on NW reared back for that shot.
Fucking coward refs too scared to make the right call.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:36 PM ^
On Zavier Simpson. That was total BS! Oh well! It’s nothing new under the sun.
February 7th, 2018 at 7:18 AM ^
Towards the end of the game, maybe the last three minutes, they called a BS call on D Robinson as well, I am not sure he touched the guy, but I think the ref just anticipated that he was going to and blew the whistle....I just don't get it some times. Refs suck, we just still don't have that guy to take the game over this year, was hoping Charles was going to be that guy, but nope.
February 7th, 2018 at 10:14 AM ^
The ballcarrier pushed D Rob with an extended forearm, and Robinson got called for the foul. I don't think that was an offensive foul, but it certainly hasn't a foul on Robinson.
Then one of the next possession's, the NW ballcarrier literally shoves MAAR (or Z, can't remember) to the ground. That was an offensive foul, but no call.
It was frustrating officiating, but we had some soft calls go our way as well. The main issue was too many missed shots & FTs.
February 7th, 2018 at 10:17 AM ^
Worse is it’s completely fucked up and cowardly by the refs.
We talk about protecting kids? Rahk got mauled with intent. If the refs are not going to protect the players they need to do it themselves.
It’s wrong for the game but my next foul would have been a hard elbow to Skullys face.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:24 PM ^
when the no-calls underneath are common you need to put in an "enforcer" to jam that shit. For U-M that is Teske and Livers, who never went in the game. Maybe both are injured I don't know, but the coach needs to have someone who matches up underneath and say "f-ing bang the shit out of them until they call the game even up" ... we never did that. Our response was to put the French Puddles in that maelstrom. Bad coaching error and lost the game.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:34 PM ^
Did you stream the game or just read the box score?
February 6th, 2018 at 9:44 PM ^
I watched the game that's how I knew what happened.
That was not a common foul.
2 shots and the ball is potentially 5 points and could have made a difference.
February 7th, 2018 at 10:18 AM ^
That’s not coincidence.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:25 PM ^
Officiating is really an issue, and it’s not just in Big Ten games and doesn’t only affect Michigan. It’s also not the primary reason that they lost today.
Referees are influenced by thousands* of people screaming at them. Most of them do the best that they can under the circumstances. The best they can do isn’t very good, and seems to be declining over time.
*well, hundreds, in Rosemont.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:35 PM ^
I agree with you. That being said, I consider Michigan Basketball to be my third UM sport behind football and hockey, and don't like the sport as much in general (partly for the reason noted in OP). I've loved Michigan basketball my whole life, but really can't stand watching other hoops unless I have a VERY strong rooting interest for a particular team in the game.
I think it is just an inherent problem with the sport that makes it a lesser sport; It's almost impossible for two people to agree on the amount of contact that should be allowed in basketball on a consistant basis. This is why refs are almost inclined to be a baseline of questionable game in and game out. It's also much harder game in general to officiate as you have to use your own judgement significantly more than just follow a rulebook like other sports. Judgement calls exist in other sports, but not nearly as frequently as basketball.
As other commenters have noted, we got bigger problems to worry about when it comes to Michigan winning games. I trust that Coach Beilein can use this setback as an important teaching moment for this team, and we can finish this season in a very strong way, especially against OSU and in the tournaments!
Go Blue, time to get into full work mode.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:29 PM ^
Basketball is the toughest sport to officiate. You want to manage flow, but the rules are written and applied in a way that puts judgement in the refs hands quite often. Like holding in football, you could probably find a foul on almost every trip down the floor if a team shows any defensive effort and intensity.
February 6th, 2018 at 11:51 PM ^
is by far the easiest sport to officiate.
Its a non contact sport. If you initiate contact or impeded someone’s path (if they got there first) its generally a foul. Traveling is an easy call. Out of bounds is reviewable now. Charges can be tough not impossible to get right Whats hard about officiating basketball? If you played the game you can make 99 % of the calls right without thinking.
Football is dam hard ti officiate. Holding, downfield lineman, grounding, catches!!!. Getting fumbles right, forward progress. Spots!!!? My god. Calling balls and strikes or a bang band play is really hard too. Basketball is soooo easy in comparison. What ate you taking about???
February 7th, 2018 at 12:19 AM ^
and if you don't think so, you've clearly never played. But that's what makes it so hard to officiate. Every single drive to the hoop, every single post-up there is contact and the refs have to determine whether the contact was relatively incidental or whether it impeded the offensive player enough to change his path or affect the shot.
Football is really hard too, but there are like 6 refs, each with a different job and section of the field so it's not like that all have all those responsibilities.
They're both hard to ref. In both sports fan bitch all the time (rightfully). Gotta overcome it.
February 7th, 2018 at 5:50 AM ^
I reffed kids rec ball when I was a high school player. It is really a lot harder than it looks and these were just kids. I found it to be the hardest sport to officiate without a doubt.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:29 PM ^
Poole is not tough enough to play those minutes. Where is LIvers and Teske? Poole is too soft to play that role.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:31 PM ^
You didn’t watch the game!
February 6th, 2018 at 9:56 PM ^
Livers got hurt early. I was at the game and he was visibly in pain.
February 6th, 2018 at 10:22 PM ^
the BTN coverage stunk tonight. They never mentioned Livers or Teske as missing for the game . So maybe my tirade is just a response to the whiff by the BTN shit coverage. That would be par for the course...
February 6th, 2018 at 10:25 PM ^
Sorry
February 6th, 2018 at 10:02 PM ^
Where is livers? Can this guy be banned from posting for at least a few days please
February 6th, 2018 at 10:57 PM ^
Clearly you're clueless. Livers was hurt. Never played after ankle injury. Coach B played Poole a bit more and a lot of Mo because we needed as much O potential as possible. Poole > Matthews offensively. Mo > Teske.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:52 PM ^
much worse than Ugly win.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:55 PM ^
shoved around like a bunch of third-graders in the playground at recess. We sucked like stupid school kids.
February 7th, 2018 at 5:31 AM ^
so you have no grounds to an opinion. Go Away!
February 6th, 2018 at 10:13 PM ^
maybe street ball rules need to be used. No Blood. No Foul.
February 6th, 2018 at 10:14 PM ^
Poole's short shorts and curly-locks hairdo need to change. If that guy wants to make it in the B1G and ultimately in the NBA he needs to get way more bad-ass physical.
February 6th, 2018 at 10:39 PM ^
A-hole status! So you are unapologetically attacking his looks? Would that be prejudice in your eyes? Locks? Remove them why? You should be banned!
February 6th, 2018 at 11:10 PM ^
Am i missing something here? Were there posts removed because this comment makes no sense in response to mine.
February 6th, 2018 at 11:21 PM ^
I was trying to reply to the comments from Mongo
February 6th, 2018 at 11:53 PM ^
no worries. just confusing.
February 6th, 2018 at 10:20 PM ^
Ok when officials are probably right 90% of the time but players miss layups and free throws, turn the ball over and commit stupid fouls?
February 6th, 2018 at 10:24 PM ^
First of all, we lost this game on our own, sure refs didn’t help but my coaches always said don’t let the refs be a factor. Anyways, it may be a harder game to officiate but it can still be done consistently, just look at the nba. I’m not an nba fan at all but the refs are at least usually consistent
February 7th, 2018 at 12:01 AM ^
Then whats your opinion of an offense based on moving the ball around the perimeter and taking (mostly) low percentage 3s (and being out of position to get offensive rebounds) vs working the ball into the paint, focusing on matchups ( which vary widely in college ball) and taking high percentage 2 point shots and rebounds and put backs?
Apparently you need a high caliber coach to run the former and teams that are athletic and work for inside shots tend to cheat and get put on probation more often so why bother doing that because the Fab 5 proved it leads to decades of misery.
February 7th, 2018 at 5:45 AM ^
I didn’t notice the refs at all this game. Not one time. But yes, ebbs and flows happen. There are trends within a game. It’s a thing. Always has been.
February 7th, 2018 at 8:54 AM ^
They actually made a note during the broadcast about Staratore being the ref...
No need to lie for no reason.
February 7th, 2018 at 5:52 AM ^
When you’re a shooting team and you play against someone that’s going to camp out in a 2/3 you have to hit outside shots. Simpson can’t penetrate like Walton yet and that hurts too. As for the refs, this is how it should be. They called it for the home team. You See that everyplace except for Ann Arbor. I don’t know why?
February 7th, 2018 at 10:16 AM ^
The one thing that bothers me so much about basketball is that the refs tend to affect the outcome of the game more often and more severely than other sports. You definitely see it in other sports, but the refs affect the outcome of basketball a lot more often even if not on purpose. It is extremely inconsistant game to game and even minute to minute.